Does cellulose contain nitrogen

Kulturpilz.de

Cellulose degradation & lignin degradation by oyster mushrooms

Moderators:Mycelio, fluorescent mushroom, geriull

AndreasTyrol
Honorary Member
Posts: 247
Joined: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:44 PM

Cellulose degradation & lignin degradation by oyster mushrooms

Postby AndreasTyrol »Tuesday, November 20, 2007 6:04 p.m.

Hello everyone!

Over the weekend, I have decided on the occasion (brown rot pathogens wanted) the most important points of Lelley, mushroom cultivation, on the subject "Lignin degradation and cellulose utilization by the oyster mushroom"To quote. Those who own the book themselves can look it up there themselves, but for those who do not own the book, this information may be helpful, or at least interesting.

As always, Lelley is an excellent resource, full of details that are otherwise only found in scientific publications - articles that would be a painstaking search for.

I am not allowed to simply copy the corresponding section of Lelley's book for copyright reasons. But I am allowed to write a short contribution on the topic in my own words and I am allowed to quote important passages from the book in more or less detail.

So:
(All of Lelley's quotes are through Quote marked. The rest is from me or a short version from me of the rest of the text by Lelley.)

------------
"Oyster mushrooms are typical representatives of the primary decomposers. They colonize plant residues in their original, original state ..."
Oyster mushrooms are not secondary decomposers like mushrooms, which colonize substrate that has already been partially degraded by other organisms (e.g. horse manure composted with straw), but they grow on organic materials in their original state, mostly dead plant material; Lelley calls this predominantly plant material "plant residues".
"The main constituents of plant residues are cellulose and lignin. They are considered to be the most common organic substances around the world."
It is now important to realize that the lignin in wood or straw, for example, is not nicely separated from the cellulose, but that lignin and cellulose almost always appear together (exception: cotton is almost pure cellulose).
"Lignin, an amorphous mixed polymer made of phenylpropane bodies, is always present in connection with cellulose and hemicellulose. This complex is called lignocellulose."
The cellulose would actually be easily degradable (for many microorganisms). But when the cellulose is encrusted with lignin, most organisms are unable to break down.
"It is mainly the white, brown and soft rot fungi that can split this complex, whereby the lignin breakdown is mainly done by the white rot fungi."
Once again you can see what an excellent source Lelley is: in almost all sources on the subject, white and brown rot fungi are mentioned, but one rarely hears about the rot rot fungi.

White rot fungi are so named because they break down the lignin (= the darker part in the wood) and therefore leave behind white wood, which consists of the undegraded cellulose.

Brown rot fungi are so named because they break down the cellulose (= the lighter part in the wood) and therefore leave dark wood or dark crumbs behind, which then contain the undegraded lignin.
"Depending on the type of fungus, the lignin breakdown takes place either step by step with the cellulose breakdown (synchronous) or preferentially (selective), i.e. much more lignin than cellulose is broken down."

"Oyster mushrooms, among others, are selective lignin breakers. But the question arises as to why they behave this way."
Lelley then explains that the lignin serves as a nitrogen source (N) for the oyster mushrooms. If the substrate is missing N, then the oyster mushroom gets this N from the lignin.
"In relevant studies with other white rot fungi (Flacher Lackporling - Ganoderma applanatum) on a wooden base (birchwood flour) it turned out that the intensity of lignin degradation depends on the nitrogen concentration in the medium. The smaller the nitrogen content, the greater the lignolytic activity."

"While nitrogen deficiency promotes lignin breakdown, it inhibits cellulose breakdown."
But if there is enough nitrogen in the medium, cellulose and hemicellulose are quickly used!
"Cellulose and hemicellulose also serve as an important source of carbon for oyster mushrooms. In contrast, lignin cannot be used by them as the sole carbon source."
Don't get confused here:

difference nitrogenswell) - carbonsource (C):

lignin Nitrogen source - Cellulose Carbon source.

(More precisely: lignin nitrogen source and possibly also carbon source - cellulose only carbon source.)

Oyster mushrooms can use lignin as a source of nitrogen and also utilize as a carbon source; however, lignin is apparently sufficient as the only onecarbondo not swell; cellulose or another carbon source must also be present.
"From the investigations of the aforementioned scientists, we know that the selective degradation of lignin in some white rot fungi is due to the fact that there is a lack of nitrogen in the nutrient medium. Hardly did they add a nitrogen source to a wood sample in which the lignin was almost completely degraded, and it quickly set in cellulose degradation. "
The less N a certain type of wood contains, the more the fungus is dependent on getting the N from the lignin. Then it cannot completely break down the cellulose, which is also usable, because more N would have to be present in the wood for this. Consequence: the fungus leaves behind large parts of the cellulose: it is a white rot fungus. A type of wood with very little N is e.g. poplar wood, which contains only 0.04% N (nitrogen), 50% of which is bound to the lignin.

As a rule of thumb, you can remember that the oyster mushroom is a white rot mushroom (mainly breaks down lignin) as long as there is only a little N in the substrate (wood, straw, ...), but that oyster mushrooms also like to use cellulose well and quickly, if sufficient nitrogen is available.

(Additional information: In Stamets "The mushroom cultivator" there is a list of several pages that lists the distribution of P, N, protein, dry matter, etc. for many known natural substances. For example, for many types of straw, grass, hay , Types of feed, concentrates (malt extract, apple pulp, blood meal, ...), types of grain, types of beans, ... etc.)

Then comes Lelley's very interesting remark that the oyster mushroom develops particularly quickly on nutrient media in which low-molecular and high-molecular components occur, e.g. low-molecular sugars (glucose, maltose, starch) and high-molecular components (cellulose, hemicellulose, lignin). The oyster mushroom does not grow as quickly on culture media with only one carbon source as on culture media with several components. A mixture of low molecular weight carbon sources also triggers abundant mycelial growth. And:
"It is assumed, however, that sugars with fewer than five carbon atoms are unsuitable as a carbon source for oyster mushrooms."
------------

So, those were the most important passages on the subject. The original passage in the book is a little more detailed and precise; the original can be obtained if necessary.


Greetings to everyone,
Andre.

Christoph
Site Admin
Posts: 402
Joined: Monday, December 05, 2005 6:25 PM
Location: Sand am Main (Lower Franconia)

Postby Christoph »Wednesday, November 21, 2007 9:30 am

Hello Andre,
kudos to you! You wrote a great post, logically, clearly and very informatively. The article also helps me a lot with the experiment on cellulose degradation. There should also be interesting opportunities for mushroom cultivation: I will definitely test substrate mixtures with high and low molecular weight sugar polymers, an addition of nitrogen carriers could also deliver interesting results!
I am thinking about adding nitrogenous fertilizers to the substrate, can the fungus use the nitrogen from e.g. ammonium or nitrate salts?

Mycelio
Site Admin
Posts: 2873
Joined: Thursday, September 27, 2007 3:42 am
Location: Berlin-Friedrichshain

Postby Mycelio »Wednesday, November 21, 2007 7:38 pm

Hello Andre,

many thanks from me too. Finally the vague half-knowledge from the net is clearing up. Often it is said that fungi either break down lignin or cellulose, and only do so, which has always struck me as strange. I guess I'll have to buy the 'Mushroom Cultivator'.

One detail surprises me, however. I wonder if lignin is really a source of nitrogen. On wikipedia there is a structural formula for lignin, completely without nitrogen.
lignin
Hemicellulose
cellulose


@Nico:
Good idea, it may well be that the yield of wood substrates depends on the amount of nitrogen available. There will be reasons for oyster mushroom mycelium to grow into soil and digest microbes or nematodes there.
In addition to fertilizer salts for plants, horn shavings could also be suitable. Then urea or protein-rich legumes. In the latter, I suspect other useful ingredients (sulfur, etc.) that the mycelium needs for protein synthesis. However, such additives also increase the risk of contamination.


Carsten

AndreasTyrol
Honorary Member
Posts: 247
Joined: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:44 PM

Postby AndreasTyrol »Friday, November 23, 2007 7:11 PM

Hello Carsten,


I actually assumed that lignin itself contains nitrogen and can therefore serve as an N source. Obviously I still had the image of chitin in my head, which contains numerous nitrogen atoms.

Thank you, take care!

Lelley writes that e.g. in poplar wood 50% of the N is bound to the lignin. It should not be forgotten that most of the biomass in a tree has a supporting function; the "living" cells are in the minority: living cells always have to contain some nitrogen because proteins and DNA contain quite a bit of nitrogen.

It will probably be the case that the nitrogen is somehow only associated with the lignin, how exactly, I have to look that up again in a textbook. When I've done my research, I'll write it in here.

@Christoph: Thank you for your praise! This contribution is typical for me (not meant as self-praise), something like that will come from me more often. Whenever I find something "good" somewhere, I always feel the need to share it with other people, where I think they might need it. I am always very happy when I get good information from other people.

> I am thinking about adding nitrogenous fertilizers to the substrate, can the fungus use the nitrogen from e.g. ammonium or nitrate salts?

Lelley's article also contains some details on this.
I will deliver that later.
If you want I can copy (scan) the 3 pages from the book and send them to you by email. Otherwise, I can only advise everyone to get the book by Lelley: Pilzanbau: it is a veritable treasure trove of information that you will not find anywhere else. (E.g. mushroom cultivation on pure straw substrate!)


Greetings from Andre.

Christoph
Site Admin
Posts: 402
Joined: Monday, December 05, 2005 6:25 PM
Location: Sand am Main (Lower Franconia)

Postby Christoph »Saturday, November 24, 2007 11:35 am

It would be nice if you could email me the pages! The book is currently on Amazon. unfortunately not available, where did you get yours from?

Forest peace
Mushroom freak
Posts: 183
Joined: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 8:48 am

Postby Forest peace »Saturday, November 24, 2007 12:24 PM

Hello

tell me, can you briefly give me the isbn of the book?

thx

mushroom culture
Honorary Member
Posts: 571
Joined: Sunday September 18, 2005 3:39 PM
Location: Vienna

Postby mushroom culture »Sunday, November 25, 2007 8:36 pm

Jan Lelley

MUSHROOM GROWING - Biotechnology of cultivated mushrooms

Verlag Ulmer - ISBN: 3-8001-5131-6


.. the ISBN won't help you much, the book is out of print ... so try 1,2,3 or rummage in second-hand bookshops !

@Andre: Our "LITERATURE" department and the nirvana it contains but now wait for you and your book presentation from Lelley !

Walter

geriull
Site Admin
Posts: 460
Joined: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:54 am
Location: Steinbrunn (Austria)

Postby geriull »Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:04 pm

Hello my friends!

Contains lignin in its pure form NONE Nitrogen!
In my work we are currently dealing with lignin degradation products from the paper industry.

If you are interested, I can add a structural formula for lignin here. I just need to scan them.

If anyone is interested in a wide variety of lignin samples, for breeding experiments ... I can give you some of them.
Have about 20 different patterns.

Best regards!

Gerald
Hoi, ... my old signature is radio nimma .... a new one is sure to come again!

mushroom culture
Honorary Member
Posts: 571
Joined: Sunday September 18, 2005 3:39 PM
Location: Vienna

Postby mushroom culture »Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:19 PM

Hello Geri !

I will register for the lignin samples right away ... they will certainly be put through their paces in a field trial !

Walter

Hephaestus
Honorary Member
Posts: 360
Joined: Thursday, November 22, 2007 12:29 PM
Location: Althofen, Austria

Postby Hephaestus »Monday, November 26, 2007 12:26 PM

Hello!
AndreasTyrol wrote:I am thinking about adding nitrogenous fertilizers to the substrate, can the fungus use the nitrogen from e.g. ammonium or nitrate salts?
I stumbled upon this rather by accident:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi- ... 9 / ABSTRACT
Unfortunately I haven't got the full article yet

Greeting. Hary

geriull
Site Admin
Posts: 460
Joined: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:54 am
Location: Steinbrunn (Austria)

Postby geriull »Monday, November 26, 2007 6:58 pm

That would also be interesting:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi- ... 3 / ABSTRACT

I have online access to this journal but only for years 1999-2007

Unfortunately.

Maybe there are the articles at the University of Natural Resources and Life Sciences in Vienna.

Will try to send someone there.

Best regards!

Geri
Hoi, ... my old signature is radio nimma .... a new one is sure to come again!

AndreasTyrol
Honorary Member
Posts: 247
Joined: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:44 PM

Postby AndreasTyrol »Monday, December 03, 2007 8:03 pm

mushroom culture wrote: @Andre: Our "LITERATURE" department and the nirvana it contains but now wait for you and your book presentation from Lelley !

Walter
Hello Walter

Yes, of course, I was planning to.

I was just a little surprised about your announcement back then, because recommending an empty advisor doesn't make much sense. You probably didn't know yourself how empty it is.

I am happy to provide tips for the most important literature, but it remains questionable whether, as a newcomer, I am really the right candidate for it. There are people here in the forum with a lot more experience and knowledge than me who would certainly be more suitable as a literary adviser to give useful tips.
For example, you would be an ideal candidate!

In general, I would like to encourage experienced forum participants to take over certain departments that they take care of (within the framework of their available free time)!
Christoph wrote:It would be nice if you could email me the pages! The book is currently on Amazon. unfortunately not available, where did you get yours from?
Hello Chris

Unfortunately, I haven't been online since November 23, so I only read your message today. In the next few days I will send you the pages.

I bought my Lelley book years ago.
geriull wrote: If you are interested, I can add a structural formula for lignin here. I just need to scan them.
Hello Geri,

The structural formula of lignin was already provided by Carsten above through Wikipedia (click on the link for lignin).
geriull wrote: Should anyone be interested in a wide variety of lignin samples, for breeding experiments ... I can give you some of them.
Have about 20 different patterns.
Yes, that would also interest me a lot!

Unfortunately, I haven't been to the university library yet and haven't been able to look into the Strasburger (standard botany textbook) - so I haven't made any progress with lignin and nitrogen. But that is still to come, as well as the rest of the information discussed above.


Greetings to everyone
Andre.



AndreasTyrol
Honorary Member
Posts: 247
Joined: Thursday, September 20, 2007 1:44 PM

Postby AndreasTyrol “Wednesday 12.December 2007 8:05 pm

Oyster mushroom and nitrogen:

So here is the promised information about nitrogen:

According to Lelley, mushroom cultivation:

The optimal carbon: nitrogen ratio should be 40: 1, regardless of which carbon and which nitrogen sources are used.

Pleurotus can utilize organic and inorganic nitrogen sources. Organic nitrogen sources have proven to be more effective.

Ammonium nitrate, sodium nitrate, ammonium sulfate, potassium nitrate, for example, can serve as inorganic nitrogen sources. Depending on the type of pleurotus, certain compounds work better than others: e.g. ammonium nitrate optimal for Pleurotus sajor-caju, ammonium citrate for Pleurotus ostreatus (ammonium nitrate was almost completely useless here).

As the best organic nitrogen donors at Pleurotus sp. turned out to be peptone, yeast extract and urea. The amino acid alanine particularly stimulates mycelial growth, while arginine, asparagine and glutamine stimulate fruiting body formation.

However, many experts are of the opinion that no nitrogen at all needs to be added to non-sterile cultures, or that Pleurotus can even fix and utilize nitrogen from the atmosphere: with the help of symbiotic bacteria.

In practice, additives have not been able to gain acceptance, as the oyster mushroom produces abundant yields even without additives.

So much for the most important thing about nitrogen.

I still have to find out how nitrogen is bound to lignin: Lelley only touches the area with the succinct sentence: "Since about 50% of the total nitrogen in wood is firmly bound to the lignin ..." It seems to be a well-known one Act "fact". Let's see what else I can find out.

Greetings from Andre.